What makes a game fun? (thoughts on zam)

[Myst2]

Hey guys, this isn't supposed to be a rant post or rage post. Try to have an open mind when reading this because I won't type anything like this again. If you haven't played zem, and/or hate zem, this post will be without context (aside from videos).

 

I always thought playing as a survivor was too easy on ZEM. I thought it needed to be more balanced. I thought cade limbs would fix the 20 minute games and give the zombies a chance to win. 

 

There are so many different classes between vip, mvp, uuk, uus, admin and cc. This mod is oversaturated with powers, perks, guns, and kits. There is no way to fix this, but would you rather play cod 4 or cod advanced warfare?  

 

Alright, now that we have that down, I can proceed with my underlying point. The basic game mechanics discourage any form of special gameplay. Cade limbs + the zombie's extra speed + the score limit + the time limit all work together to form a balanced, boring game. 

 

When was the last time you saw a gameplay of someone running around for 8 minutes? Do you know what it's like to place 50 sentry turrets in one game? Have you killed 250 zombies in a game? All you guys have are 500 damage snipers and multiple entrances. 

 

The game is too easy for zombies. Nobody likes playing as a zombie, regardless of how many kills they get. Nobody is ever like " WOW I HAVE SO MANY AWESOME MEMORIES PLAYING AS A ZOMBIE ". You remember playing as a survivor! The tradeoff for balance is not worth it. There is no easy way to fix this, so nothing will happen. As usual, i don't expect a huge change in gameplay, I am just frustrated because i want to have fun and i can't. 

[Griggs]

I think you're wrong, in ZAM it's really easy to play as a zombie and survivor, if I wanna survive 1 full game, I survive, if I wanna run for 8 min, i run for 8 min, in ZAM I can do whatever for me, maybe cuz mi iz ze pro and u iz ze lil newb but menono ;3

[Myst2]

I'm with you. Like i said, there is so much shit in the mod, it's nearly impossible to fix. Nobody wants their cool gadgets and guns taken away. It's heavily imbalanced from both sides. 

 

EDIT: Woops, i wasn't clear. I was saying that defending a base alone with 3 entrances is skilled, but still boring. at least in my opinion.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Myst2

[Zedricht]

Ez pz...Sometimes I like to playing as zombie, if there are frindly players, older than 10 years old..They understand why hard to play as zombie if 10 hunters camp and you are alone. Try to speak with them, play fair. If they don't care about them they are sux lele

[Frupiss]

cading <3

[Bloody]

I'm with you. Like i said, there is so much shit in the mod, it's nearly impossible to fix. Nobody wants their cool gadgets and guns taken away. It's heavily imbalanced from both sides. 

The mod is just great. The only issue are the players who play it.

[Myst2]

The mod is just great. The only issue are the players who play it.

 

Actually it is the mod. Nobody pulls off new and interesting stunts because it's impossible. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it's not what i want.

 

You've never seen anyone run around like this

 

You've never seen anyone survive like this or this

[Griggs]

Actually it is the mod. Nobody pulls off new and interesting stunts because it's impossible. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it's not what i want.

 

You've never seen anyone run around like this

 

You've never seen anyone survive like this or this

cuz u play on US server?

 

americans suck :troll:

[Hunting]

You've never seen anyone run around like

You've never seen anyone survive like

or

Lol. Maybe YOU have never seen anyone running & surving like that.

[Myst2]

I'm not saying it was balanced. I'm saying i had more fun. Showing a gameplay doesn't encourage anyone to be dependant admins (however that's supposed to work) I would also argue that players still use admins. I'm primarily talking about bases like the one on cracked. That setup is impossible to use these days.

 

PS: that sentry gameplay was so hard to get. You don't even know how impossible it is to get started. The only reason it worked was because of a couple lucky glitches.

 

EDIT: I didn't even mention balance in the second post. Did you even read the text? 

[viirus_iquickz]

@Myst2 Let's talk about cade limbs for a few minutes. So, before cade limbs were added to the mod, the mod was really boring because the survivors always won. Back then zombies could only use limbs or ballistic knifes to make the gameplay faster and not boring at all. Cade limbs were added to make the gameplay fair for the zombies and not that much boring anymore. We had so many ideas about the cade limb but they were never added. Not sure why? Most of us understand that there are so many loadouts but they are used to shoot zombies, and cades. The game would be strange if there was just 1 loadout because everyone would have the same weapons, they wouldn't have fun, and want to have more. There are purposes of why these items were added to the game to make the gameplay even, fun, and balanced. I always see UU-K members, UU-S members and some others run around the map to either shoot, or knife. Sentry's are fun to use, but there are some problems. 1) Sentry spots are hard to find, 2) Sentry's are so much points no wonder why no one uses them anymore, 3)Sentry's can damage cades and ruin people's gameplays. Certain snipers are overpowered and their damage should be reduced to make the gameplay fair for the zombies. The game seems easy for both zombies and humans, not just zombies. Zombies don't really have that many items to choose from, but humans have variety of items to help them survive. I like playing as a zombie as it helps out my stats, and I can make fun of them survivors to get skill. I used to like playing as a zombie but don't anymore because it's boring camping in the same spots over and over again that's why we have multiple bunkers on each map.

 

The mod is just great. The only issue are the players who play it.

Gotta agree with you BLOODY. The types of players that play ZAM are the problem, not the mod itself.

 

Actually it is the mod. Nobody pulls off new and interesting stunts because it's impossible. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it's not what i want.

That's like saying you are blaming everything on the mod itself. But the thing is, a mod isn't a person, it's a thing and you cannot blame things. I mostly see moderators, admins and other particular people (MVP players) try out new spots because they get bored of going to the same spots over and over again. Plus they have been here longer then others have.

 

Lol. Maybe YOU have never seen anyone running & surving like that.

Hunting, great point.

 

I'm not saying it was balanced. I'm saying i had more fun. Showing a gameplay doesn't encourage anyone to be dependant admins (however that's supposed to work) I would also argue that players still use admins.

Showing a gameplay shows others that they too could try that spot out like that certain person did. In other words, follow their footsteps but doing it your way instead of their's. The thing I don't understand is when you say "I would also argue that players still use admins." What do you mean by this? Do you mean that MVP, VIP, and non-vip players get the admins to help them out in any way??

[Bluebird]

I mean, Myst has a point but i agree with everyone else. ZAM is fun because its unique, its fun because its not like ZEM all does little things that you mensionned migth for some be bad like cade limbs ect but in my opinion its does thing that makes ZAM What it is. Every game needs improvment and im sure ZAM will get better in the future but for now its pretty fair and fun

[Elmo]

Make a "hard" class. You start with a 50 damage gun and a 50 damage knife, you can buy damage upgrades and the class comes with speedo, but if you camp with this class you = ban.

[Bloody]

Myst get over ZEM now. Sure if ZEM was like camping with 15 players in one house and playing against 2 zombies was fun for you and here at ZAM things are different. If you had more fun at ZEM ok, fine, but this here is ZAM and we don't want to get ZEM if you understand what I am talking about. I guess you was MVP at ZEM or something with much suff not non-VIP like you are in ZAM, sure you had more fun with all these stuffs, but guess what, you can buy MVP at ZAM too and get a lot of classes and stuff.

 

Actually it is the mod. Nobody pulls off new and interesting stunts because it's impossible. You can enjoy it for what it is, but it's not what i want.

 

You've never seen anyone run around like this

 

You've never seen anyone survive like this or this

Actually not. The mod is awesone, just the players don't know how to have fun and how to play fair. Yeah, because here are players who tryhard on runners or somebody who try new spots and crazy things and not on these hardcore campers (7 players at one p-cade spot). That's the problem, but don't blame the mod.

[Zedricht]

 

Actually not. The mod is awesone, just the players don't know how to have fun and how to play fair. Yeah, because here are players who tryhard on runners or somebody who try new spots and crazy things and not on these hardcore campers (7 players at one p-cade spot). That's the problem, but don't blame the mod.

 I miss the start at 1.6...

[Classixz]

Recreating what you did in your videos is what you want to see, right? That won't be any problem but I'm not why you are not trying to if that's how you define "fun".

[mudda_fragger]

I for one love being a zombie in the beginning, it seems easy to kill the survivors no matter where camp. Also as for the Cade limb. I like it the way it is because it is easy to defend if you have points. In this mod if you expect to survive the whole time with no GOP Cade limb defense your wrong. There are ways to defend it to make the survivors OP as well as ways to break them for the zombies. This mod like bluebird said is unique. Yes I agree about the multitude of classes maybe being a bit much, but the games only ever last long if people make it do so. You can't be just an average ZAM player and do good. You need to have some skills with running getting points and building a strong base to survive. I have a 170 kill game on my channel. Also I have multiple running around games, hard spot games and everything. There have been moments like those videos on the mod myst. You just haven't been on enough to see them.

[░MyXa░]

I mean, what myst said about the turret camps and other shenanigans (can't quote for some reason) just because you didn't see it happen, it really doesn't mean it did not happen. Quite a long time ago me and kickarse used to do the most hardest and legit spots. i.e camping with 5 entrances on 20 zombies.. good times. That turrent camp? Pft, done better; crossed the whole villa map with 2x cades with 20 zombies, and only about 8 survivors(keep in mind villa is pretty big, we totally didnt die in like 3minutes xd)

 

So ye, all i gotta say.

[Ramsy]

@Bloody Please don't discourage people from discussing about other mods. Sure, this is UU, the heart of ZAM and all that surrounds it, but other than advertising, you are not disallowed from talking about other things. Freedom of speech, remember?

 

Now, moving on.

 

ZEM is where Myst, and myself, got started, so sharing some personal experience does not hurt the world. Now, clearly, 20 minute games with p-cade based survivors was not always the funnest option, I will most definitely agree on that, but ZEM was far more restritced than ZAM. How so? No cade-limbs, no extra fast zombies, no excessive rushing (at most times), so options were limited. My favourite part about ZEM was stacking. Just getting on top of that 4th (ocassionally 5th) stacked barricade always was a thrill, especially for me. You were exposed, open to limbs, but also the main bait, the center of all the action, and that's what made it all the funner. I didn't really care about exposing myself to limbs and a potential fail "escape jump" that would just make me hug the zombies or the ground that wound wind up being the death of me. Regardless of that, stacking was the funnest.

 

What else? Sitting at the offense and defense spawns of all maps, holding it off solo with Mustang & Sally. And, before you picture it, let me be more specific - no barricades or a stack, you vs a horde of 20 or so zombies going straight for you. Even running with M&S or the Ray-Gun was fun, and had almost no flaws. I guess I could say that this was pretty much killed when the Spellcaster Zombie was introduced (ability of automated freezing humans, as well as some other stuff; in other words, first-gen Shaman Zombie), but it was still an effort to run either way.

 

What am I saying with this? ZAM is filled up with random things, but, instead of removing them, why not emphasize on it all, one by one, and fix it and balance it accordingly in relation to other elements of the mod? Basic example:

 - FORCEFIELD - Disable barricades during the killaura, for about 60 seconds after the killaura and include an anti-camp script.

Boom, one problem less.

 

Now, I could go on, but I will just say two more things.

 

Me and another administrator hosted an event on ZEM a long time ago, called the "open map weekend". Basically, I re-did every map and all I did was block off every generally OP spot (i.e. the Array tower, the Firing Range tower, the WMD tower, etc...) from being accessed, as well as every 1 or 2 p-cade spot and some other spots that were closed to those two stated above. Of course, everyone bitched and moaned about it because the games ended in 2 minutes and nobody moved their ass off of the spawns. Regardless, it was hella fun. Now, ZAM should lean more to this. Encourage some level of different gameplay. Make bunkers around the maps, but block off the cliche spots that I've known for, what is it, 4 years already? Do something to keep the playerbase stable and rising, but still different from the usual. Fair, but somewhat more challenging.

 

And, my final point, something that I've wanted to share for a few days now, drumroll please...

 

HOW TO BRING BACK STACKING AND MAKE IT POSSIBLE WHILE STILL KEEPING THE CADE-LIMB IN TACT!

 

OMFG, wat? How?

 

Well, it's quite simple, honestly.

 

If you've ever had the pleasure of playing ZEM or ZAM in a strictly private match or Combat Training, or any kind of mod that involved barricades, you may know that barricades there featured something that is not featured on the actual ZAM servers (or is, but I don't know much about it) - collisions. If you place a cade at the same place you placed another one, regardless of your cading speed, it will not go into one another, they will collide, forcing that 2nd cade to go on top or bounce out. You cannot get one cade into another, under any circumstances. However, on the ZAM servers, we all very well know that a cade goes into another cade (mind = blown), thus there being no collisions, however, if you cade rapidly (under a certain 0.something second interval), you create a collision, causing something we all know as - stacking.

 

So, all we need is another selection of barricades (in the Items menu, or for a certain human class), ones which will match the ones used in private matches and Combat Training. The upside of this is that you would not be able to use these for basic survival (in a base, that is). But, since these barricades would be used for stacking, cade-limbs should under no circumstance deal damage to them.

 

In short - barricades with different collision features and resistance to cade-limbs. They would act just like the normal barricades when it would come to destroying them (x hits by zombie, one-shot with some sniper rifles), they would just work for stacking.

 

Of course, including this would require even more supervision by staff, because I'm sure you could think of numerous ways of exposing this, just as people did with the former controllable barricades.

 

Tl:dr:

 

These are just my say-so's on what I'd like in ZAM to make my personal experience even more enjoyable.

 

Not sorry for the long post. Fuck you, no potato, this ain't 9GAG.

[GreyhounD<3]

I found these quite interesnting and fun, obviously not possible to do now... Ty griggz

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130444163

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=146929320

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=144910884

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=322956534

[Ramsy]

I found these quite interesnting and fun, obviously not possible to do now...

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130444163

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=146929320

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=144910884

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=322956534

Griggs ban bls.

 

DaDo the legend. :P

 

I remember this too. It was something like: "Let's see who can build the best fort.".

 

You can do this. Mines are disabled, remember?

[GreyhounD<3]

OHH, so that's why when I ran on I never blew up :o

[Myst2]

This exactly Ramsy! Stacking is what zam could improve upon. The collision cades seem great, but difficult to execute. A cade that has 1 health, but takes 2-3 limbs to destroy also sounds relatively fair.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBpEHXmVpas&t=28 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67luYvRc1UM&t=36 

[Bluebird]

even tougth i havent read this huge text/book i agree with What ramsy said

[Ramsy]

To add on to my stacking idea:

 

When in a private match or Combat Training, if you place a barricade on top of another barricade, regardless what time (instantly, 5 min later, etc...), it will always stay on top of the lower barricade, which, while not so relevant or meaningful in the said game options, it would be hella op on the actual ZAM servers. So, the barricades, while being immune to cade-limbs, still should have the same physics features as the current barricades have. To add on to that, if you've tried these barricades in said private match or Combat Training, you'll know that they twitch like crazy and bounce to random places willy-nilly (odd physics, I don't know why exactly).

So, to sum up, the features of these barricades, are:

 - when hitting the barricades with Zombie Hands, Ballistic Knife, SOG Knife, normal limbs and others, everything remains the same

 - total resistance (immunity) to all sorts of cade-limbs (current and future possibilities)

 - they cannot in any way be placed one into another (no barricades going into other barricades), only stackable; collisions

 - destroyable, just like the current ones (by both teams)

 - if in any way used to glitch (access spots which will make the player(s) only be able to die from limbs), player(s) will be punished